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Dr Shaireen: Welcome back to the third and final episode of our podcast, Playing to Our Children’s Strengths. This is a podcast all about supporting our children for the transition to primary school. I’m Shai, and in today’s podcast, I’m happy to introduce Mr Lee Hoi Leong as our special guest today. Welcome to the show, Hoi Leong. 

Mr Lee: Thanks, Shai. 

Dr Shaireen: I’m glad you made some time for us today. I understand that you were a former civil servant, but you left that career to lead a Japan-founded non-profit organisation to Singapore. That’s really interesting, Hoi Leong. Could you share a little about what you do and why you do it? 

Mr Lee: Sure. Yes, I’m the co-founder of the Singapore Hub of VIVITA, which is a non-profit organisation with a mission to empower children with the mindset and skills to create the future and to make the world a better place. In Singapore, we run the only children and youth-centric community marketplace called Vivistop Kampong Eunos that’s in the East. We envision this place to be a place where children can explore their creative passions and turn their ideas to life. One of the central philosophies of what we do is this notion of being child-led. At VIVITA, there’s no fixed curriculum, and we let the children have a choice of what they want to learn and do. For adults who are there, we are facilitators of their learning, we facilitate the exploration and tinkering, and sometimes even learn with them together. We don’t have to know every single thing as well. From this place, we then also work with other schools and community organisations to spread the spirit of maker education, creative education, and design education as well. Just now, I think you asked a question about why I’m doing and what I’m doing. In between my career as a civil servant and now the role in VIVITA, I actually worked in the startup space a little bit. 

Mr Lee: I saw that technology is really changing very, very fast. At the same time, the world is getting more and more unpredictable and VUCA as well. I have two kids. They are now like P3 and P6, but around six years ago when I started, that experience really made me think of, how should the children be learning in this very fast-changing world that we are going through? At the same time, because I work with different startups, I also feel that the world needs more change-makers to tackle the many, many challenges that humankind is facing. There’s this quote that resonated with me a lot, and it’s by a famous computer scientist called Alan Kay. The quote goes like this, “The best way to predict the future is to invent it”. I think that really is an answer to the wonder that I have, how should learning be and what should learning be for. VIVITA is exactly an organisation that when I was working in Japan, I found them. They’re trying to create this environment that nurtures children to create and invent their future rather than following a future that’s set for them. I think exactly that’s why I felt Singapore children lacked such an opportunity. Singapore is a very well-run country, but it might be also lacking in giving space for children to explore and create their future. In order to do that, that’s why I started VIVITA Singapore around five years ago. 

Dr Shaireen: Thanks so much, Hoi Leong. That sounds like an enormous purpose that you have. 

Mr Lee: Okay, thank you. 

Dr Shaireen: I think that is really something that will shift the way that we do things. It’s your little bit for the children and the youth, I suppose. I wanted to just go back to the bit about you talking about creating a space where children could exercise their choice over how to learn and what to do. That really sounds very inspiring. But a lot of experts on play have also begun to demonstrate evidence on the importance of giving time for children to learn through play, and we always hear it being said. Could you share with us your thoughts on play? 

Mr Lee: Sure. So first and foremost, what I think is that the word “play” somehow has this negative meaning among, especially adults, because it’s used in a context as a contrast and opposite of the concept called work and study. Please don’t play, go and study, or if you are working, then you’re not playing. In this society now, the word “play” is often used as the opposite of work and study, which most people think that it should be doing. But I guess from our individual personal experience, most of us would have a very positive experience about playing. We remember the fun moments that we have rather than the moments that we are working like mad, right? Personally, I really think that it’s because of this maybe wrongly used opposites of work and study versus play that give us this negative impression. In fact, “play” is a lot of positive things. The first thing that I really like about “play” is that most of the time during play, the player, let’s say we ourselves are in control. It’s this time that we are accessing our own control and we are in a self-directed mode. Maybe in the workplace and study, actually, I personally feel that many people are not experiencing that they have agency or control. Play is an important time that we actually have control. It’s very important. 

Dr Shaireen: You’re saying we should play more at work, right, Hoi Leong? 

Mr Lee: Just have more self-control in work, and play and have more fun in work. I think that also links to my next view about what play is. Most of the time when we play, there’s fun involved, and with the fun is engagement, and we are engaged in it. I think many of us have experienced that when we are engaged, that’s where we learn the best or we have good memories of it. Play is exactly this time where fun and engagement happens. We sometimes with that even forget about things like failure. I sometimes play computer games with my kids as well. Then in a computer game, it’s very often we’ll get killed “Oh, die.” But during the time, it’s pretty okay. It’s all just do again. Let’s try again to overcome the challenges of this enemy appearance at the time. Play is a period of time that can help us because of the fun and engagement. It helps us overcome some of the challenges that even we’re facing. The last thing that I always mention to people about play is that there are just a lot of definitions about play, and maybe that’s another reason why there’s no good consensus about the advantage of play. 

Mr Lee: But I think nobody will say that it’s not good to be playful. Have this playful spirit, have joy in our everyday life, it will definitely uplift the spirit and make everybody mentally more well. They’ll play this large element of being playful, and I think it’s very necessary in all of our lives. 

Dr Shaireen: I love what you said about play and being playful. I wish I could do that more in my workspace every day. 

Mr Lee: I’m sure you are. 

Dr Shaireen: I try, I try. But I think we could always do a little bit more of it and build our resilience at the same time, isn’t it? I like what you said just now about the importance of failure and that children should learn to take that failure is acceptable, should understand that failure is acceptable. 

Dr Shaireen: But you know the context within which we live, right, Hoi Leong? We are very kia-su, as Singaporeans. And I suppose one of the things that makes us successful as well is being kia-su and not wanting to lose. But you know some of the messaging now is that it is okay, and that it’s okay to fail, it’s okay to lose, it’s okay not to do so well. But it’s a bit of a contradictory message, so to speak. And I’m just wondering whether maybe this is why we find it really hard to let go. Just wondering, as an advocate of play and also one that says that failure is okay, what are your thoughts on that? 

Mr Lee: One of the reasons for what you mentioned just now that Singapore seems to be kia-su and there’s this fear of losing. I think that’s something that is rooted in our cultural and societal background that sometimes it’s hard to change. In an Asian culture, let’s say, face matters, and then maybe in a competitive society when Singapore was really striving for survival since our beginning of our nation-building. The opportunity cost of losing and failing is very high. So culturally, we have this feeling that one is face, and second the world is not so forgiving, and we cannot bear that. That is true in a pragmatic sense to that extent. At the same time, I think many of us also know about an experience from the famous inventor Edison. He has this famous quote that says, “It’s not that I failed 10,000 times, but I found out 10,000 ways why certain things didn’t work”. Another great engineer, Dyson, that invented the vacuum cleaner that is very iconic now. He actually made 5,127 prototypes before he reached this current design that is now so prevalent as the bagless Cyclone cleaner. There’s also a place, especially if we want to strive for more inventiveness, creativeness, and there’s a place for failure. Without failure, it’s very hard to get success. Personally, I think that it’s not if there’s any right or wrong, but if our intent is to be better in being creative, inventive and innovative, then we need to shift the attitude towards failure and normalise it as just being a learning opportunity, a process to improve. But at the same time, knowing that it’s something that, being aware that failure is a certain nature, then I think we can take the action to decide when we are faced with failure, what should we do with it?    

Dr Shaireen: Thanks for that, Hoi Leong. I suppose sometimes also in our system where we are moving across the preschool system and then the children are going into a primary school system, exactly what you said, there are bound to ne occasions where there will be failure, but those are also opportunities that we need to learn how to manage, learn how to overcome together, especially at points. These are points of tension, but it’s not necessarily just failure, but it is, in a sense, an opportunity. 

Mr Lee: That’s right. 

Dr Shaireen: So, Hoi Leong, I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit. You talked quite a bit about failure, play, the importance of creativity, you’re a father, and so I want to ask you something maybe a little bit more personal. Now, philosophically and personally, you have your beliefs about human development, learning, child development and play. How do you then exercise this in the way that you raise your own family? Maybe we can take a cue from some of the things that you do because you believe in it so strongly. Could you share your thoughts on that? 

Mr Lee: Yeah. So I think as a parent in Singapore, I totally can identify the peer pressure that you can say that all the Singapore parents are facing. Then you hear the, oh, my friends’ kids are all going to. I was like, oh, am I losing out or missing out? I’m quite glad that my wife shared pretty similar beliefs to me in terms of how we approach nurturing our children. I think a few things that we very intentionally do is one, setting aside time for play. I think that’s something that we really, I find it challenging to actually do. In particular, now my children are in middle and upper primary, and we can visually see that their time is getting more and more packed with be it homework, after-school programmes and so on. I think as a parent, if we don’t intentionally set aside time for them to play or bring them out of the school work context, then we think that they will lose their childhood. When we really practise it, make sure that there’s a few times in the week that we bring them to play sports, go to the playground, go to the park, or just let them choose something that they want to. I think the second thing that we practise is to support what our children want to do. I think since young, we have been listening to them and observing them on what they like to do, what they might be strong in, and then give them a choice on what sports do they want to pursue further, maybe even the team that they want to watch at home, which one they want to watch. Rather than as parents, we just totally cut it off and say that, oh okay, this is for them, and we decide for them. For those that are really harmful, yes, we should. But for certain things, I think we really practise on a day-to-day basis, giving them agency to choose. If they learn how to make choices since young, then when they get older, they will know how to make choices for themselves as well. I think these are two examples of us implementing some of what I mentioned, the philosophical education approaches of giving children agency as well as giving them time. 

Dr Shaireen: Particularly, you have to practise what you preach. Even if it’s really difficult, you have to find that spot and just focus on it and structure your responses to things, especially when you are negotiating with children and things like that in those moments in a way that gives them the agency because that ultimately goes a much longer way rather than an immediate decision. Thank you for that. So now I like to turn a little bit to thinking about our Singapore children today. So, some say that they are a very lucky generation and the kind of environment that they’re growing up in is very comfortable. But there’s also a school of thought that thinks otherwise, and they feel that children are experiencing more anxieties nowadays, and that actually that lack of playtime and unstructured play in their life deprives them of a chance to discover themselves and identify their own strengths. I’m just wondering what your perspectives are on that. 

Mr Lee: I think for me, I really agree with this last part that you mentioned, that children are experiencing more anxiety, and then the lack of unstructured time is really depriving the children to explore and find out more about themselves. At VIVITA, we work with primary schools and secondary schools. So beyond looking at my own children’s case, we also have been observing working with schools, how is that schedule like, how is the different children’s schedules? Definitely compared to maybe 20 years ago when maybe we were still studying, there’s a great difference. The children are definitely having a much more packed schedule. Sometimes for secondary school students, most of the day ends at 5, 6 o’clock. During my school days, 1:30, I go home and I’m just… I’m so free. I have time to explore a lot of things. At the time, I liked computers, so I was fiddling with Photoshop. Yes, sometimes I play computer games, yes, but I also have a lot of time on my own to explore other things that I like. I can really feel that currently the children lack that kind of time space to do that. The level of competition is also definitely higher. That one is a little bit unavoidable in a meritocratic society like Singapore or globally, yes, indeed, the world is getting more competitive. With more competition, the expectation in general on the society or parents on the children is also getting higher. That further takes away the free time, be it play, the structured time that the children have because there’s still to be just so much to catch up and to get ahead of the others. Yes, I really think that that’s the issue because by taking away such playtime or unstructured time, it really deprives the time for the children to learn through play, to find their own bearing in life and to practise agency. I think that’s the reason why I really think that it’s something meaningful to do, to advocate what VIVITA is trying to do in Singapore. 

Dr Shaireen: I like what you said just now. It’s sometimes a bit counterintuitive. We think that you should put more time into studies and not play, but the play bit actually yields more value and more benefit to a child. I think it’s probably a change that we’ve got to make and normalise in the way that we think. Not doing more, but actually doing less, it actually gives us more and builds us in a better way. 

Dr Shaireen: You just mentioned about the Singapore education system and that whole bit about us being a very exam-focused system. The latest PISA study showed that Singapore 15-year-olds, they top the PISA ranking in terms of creativity. I think it was reported in the CNA story. Our system does recognise different strengths and promote creativity, even though we are very much an exam-based system. Could you give us some thoughts or your perspectives on that? 

Mr Lee: Yeah, I think this, Singapore topping the ranking in PISA score in creativity, really shocked everyone. Even the Director-General of Education came out and said that she was shocked as well. Personally, I think it’s a good direction. It means it’s something that it showed a certain aspect of our education system, we should take the score with a pinch of salt because creativity has really many different aspects. I’ve read the questions in the PISA test, and I can understand where it’s coming from and what it is trying to measure. But creativity is much wider than that. Back to the point of, let’s say, are we too hard on ourselves? I think we should also first celebrate what we already have, so I think Singapore has come so far from where Singapore started to now. Human resources, the greatest asset, and the education system has managed to nurture a lot of good talent in Singapore, that’s why we are here. At the same time, there was also this culture of we have to be number one and strive for excellence. When we hear the news that we are number one, we are very happy, but it doesn’t mean that we are not number one, we are not good. Personally, I think that it will be good to continue to shift towards accepting diversity. To accept that not one single or even one or two measurements say that we are good, then we are really good. Maybe the academic measure in PISA or now the creativity measure of PISA. That doesn’t define what we are, but it’s a feedback to our current system, what we are doing, and that’s the outcome. I think that definitely, even just for the definition of creativity that can be a lot more diversity, and sometimes even hard to put a number on how creative somebody is, less of a country. It’ll be good to widen our definition of diversity or just accept that diversity is a possibility to bring in more creativity, innovation, and also sometimes just fun and happiness. At the same time, while not too focusing on the external score, but something that we should focus is about whether our children have creative confidence, the belief that they can actually make a change to something, be it small or big. On this portion of creative confidence, again, it may not be quantifiable, but as parents or a teacher or an adult, I think we can feel the young people around us, how do they see life, how do they see themselves. For this measure, currently, I do feel that we are a little bit weak. Many Singapore students are actually not very confident about themselves. They may already be topping the PISA and the whole world, but they still think that they’re not enough. That really affects their well-being as well as they actually have a lot of potential if they break away from this mindset. I really hope that we may place more importance in looking at nurturing our children and students’ creative confidence that may even be a better measurement than the score. 

Dr Shaireen: Thanks for that, Hoi Leong. I’m reminded of a very funny incident. I’m in early childhood education, and I still keep in touch with some of my children and talking about creative confidence. In early childhood, we tend to promote that a lot, and sometimes that’s the difficulty that children face when they go into a slightly more structured primary school system. I remember in preschool, we let the children tell us what is it that their answers are, and so they can write the answers down, and we are open to accepting it because that’s how we build their confidence and their understanding of things. But when the child went into primary one, they had multiple choice. They had A, B, C, D. The child that I can say, if I can say in retrospect, we did a very good job in developing creative confidence because the child said, I don’t like A, I don’t like B, I don’t like C, I don’t like D, I don’t like all these answers. I’m going to write my own answer in E. 

Mr Lee: That’s very good. 

Dr Shaireen: Yeah, that’s right. Thankfully, they had a teacher who understood and was explaining to the child how different systems work. But sometimes you also need to have a little of these bases to be able to understand where the child is coming from, how is it that they are able to manage things, how do they understand things? All these take time. But if we are going to go towards a truly creative nation like what you said, Hoi Leong, we also need to expand the way that we think and be okay with being challenged, not be, in a sense, driven by a template, but looking at things a lot more broadly, like you said. I really love our conversation today, Hoi Leong, and I know I’ve taken quite a bit of your time today, but perhaps before we end, if you could give three pieces of advice to parents who are listening in as they prepare their children for the transition to primary school, what would these be? 

Mr Lee: The first point is actually echoing what you have just said that once, I really like that in kindergarten or preschool, there’s a lot about play and open-endedness, but somehow suddenly when it goes to the primary school system, all those are being treated as no longer important, and there is something that’s even more important than that, right? This is called playing. It’s one thing that I would like to hope that more parents will be mindful of. Don’t stop your child from playing even after they go to primary school. 

Dr Shaireen: That’s right. 

Mr Lee: Having this nature of the open-endedness, inquiry-based, exploring, is still actually what we need for our whole life. It’s not only primary school. Please don’t let this sense of curiosity, playfulness, openness just lose, fall off the cliff when it goes to the primary school. The second one that I would like to share is also what I practise with my wife is that once the child goes to a primary school, parents will be sometimes brought down by short-term measurements. Let’s say when you see test scores, oh, my child is not doing well. Then parents tend to have a knee-jerk reaction when we see this. But I think we should all remember what is important for each of us when we want to look at our child’s long-term growth. Is it compassion that we care about? Is it good character that we think will be useful to our child in the long term? Or is it some other things that, depending on your own belief, your culture, I’m sure we have some of these, but sometimes we will lose sight of them once the short-term measurements are shown in our face. I hope that all of us don’t forget what is important for each of us and be pulled away by these short-term measurements. Last but not least, we have a very simple three-word answer is love your children. Don’t forget to love our children. I think the children feeling the love of parents, it really gives them lots of strength to take on many challenges they have in their life. So yes, my three advice would be, don’t suddenly stop playing, remember what’s important for you and your child in the long term, as well as don’t stop loving your children. 

Dr Shaireen: Thank you for that, Hoi Leong. Very wise words, very pragmatic, very practical for all parents. And I think it sits in the heart of every parent for wanting the child to do well. But it sounds so simple, but it’s so important. Yes. So, thanks so much for all your sharing today. I get from this today that I think we need to play to learn, but also at the same time, we need to learn to play a little bit more because of all the benefits of it. But I also like your reminder in terms of the values that we can gain from looking at how we support our children as they go through the experience. It’s really been great talking to you today, Hoi Leong, and I’m sure a lot of parents out there who are listening in, they will be truly inspired with your words today. 

Mr Lee: Thank you very much for having me today, and hope that it’s useful for some of you. 

Dr Shaireen: Thank you, Hoi Leong. Thank you very much. 

Mr Lee: Thank you, Shai.